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El Tiempo via EPA
Priests Rafael Reatiga (left) and Richard Piffano were gunned down a year ago in Bogota.
Hours after he asked his parishioners to pray for him, Rev. Rafael Reatiga was found shot to death in a car in Bogota with another Roman Catholic priest.
The Associated Press reported that police initially suspected that Reatiga and Rev. Richard Piffano, 37, were victims of robbery. But now, three weeks after their bodies were found, Colombian prosecutors say the two Catholic priests hired hitmen to kill them when at least one of them was diagnosed with AIDS.
Prosecutors located the alleged hitmen based on phone numbers the priests had called from their cell phones days before their deaths.
Prosecutors said Tuesday that the priests paid about $8,500 for the hit. They had originally planned to commit suicide by throwing themselves into a canyon but couldn’t bring themselves to jump. Medical tests showed that Reatiga, 36, had AIDS.
He also had syphilis and had been seen visiting places frequented by gay men in Bogota, according to the AP.
Two of the four assassins have been arrested, the AP reported. They face up to 40 years in prison if convicted.
Leave a Comment:
Eat your heart out, Law & Order. Eat it.
This is what religion does to people.
AIDS is survivable. You can live a long time with the illness.
The problem is that you cannot live a long time being ostracized by stupid religious wingnuts.
.
You're an example of what atheism does to people. Makes them small minded, hateful and bitter.
Having people shove their beliefs down our throat all the time does make us bitter. But please do keep reminding us that we should be tolerant of your hatred and naked hypocrisy.
proamerica:
It's not atheists who are preaching that AIDS is the wages of sin.
It's not atheists who believe that gays are tearing apart the moral fabric of civilization itself.
It's not atheists who lie awake at night in fear of same-sex marriage.
And it's the atheists who are "small minded, hateful and bitter"?
Project much?
I wonder if the hit men got paid first .... ??
I think if the parishioners would have know that they were going to use their donations to hire hitmen, I am sure someone would have stepped up and done it for free.
meanwhile ... bishops in America want to wage war on our government because contraception is legal in this country. It is past time to stop tax breaks for religious organizations. I am a Catholic, but the clergy are only men and we need to keep a tight leash on them. Give them enough rope, and they will hang us all ... or burn us at the stake, or rip body parts in an Inquisition.
Who needs that silly sanctity of life stuff anyway?
Hmm, so if Catholics view suicide as a mortal sin, does paying someone to kill you get you into heaven? Looks like even priests are trying to find loopholes in catholic law. I believe they call it martyrdom?
WAT??!! Two misfit priests from Columbia (how far away is that??) make it on the front of MSNBC News?? Me not Catholic, but really, there's gotta be a better story out there. Any more LA School Teachers raping children today?
MSNBC practically daily gives us a diet of moral (human failings) in the Catholic Church but conveniently gloss over the epidemic proportions of pedophilia in our nations school system. In the Los Angeles case currently going on Hispanic children were targeted & a female teacher even sent a love letter to an 11 yr old boy! In our area we have had numerous instances of abuse of special needs children by school bus drivers.
But Lame stream media has got to pound that drum for Obama, Catholics this, catholics that, yada yada
Haven't you been paying attention, justoneguy???
It's newsworthy because it's so FRIGGIN' BIZZARE!!! Have you ever heard of suicide by hit-man!? I sure as hell haven't!
And distance doesn't matter. This could have happened in Antarctica and it'd still be news!
Very poorly worded headline. It implies that the Colombian priests paid the hitmen to commit suicide. They got the wording right in the body of the text when they said "...the two Catholic priests hired hitmen to kill them..." So why do they use "themselves" in the headline? Not doing your jobs, MSNBC editors.
I agree with GAdude. I thought the article was about hiring hitmen to kill other hitmen. An alternative interpretation would be hiring hitmen to kill themselves... but since that was unlikely, I came to the first conclusion. The headline is definitely poorly wordly and misleading.
Father should have used a condom! Oh yea he didn't want to go to hell. Never mind. (sarcasm)
Religious cockamaiminess and hypocrisy strike again - and the Catholic Church continues its quest for tragi-comic hilarity.
Btw, this wasn't just about "they couldn't do it themselves" - in their screwed up and hypocritical minds, they probably figured that hiring hitmen just might get them around their faith's prohibition against suicide, which means they can get buried in consecrated grounds. And since each is a priest, they could've taken each other's confession and absolved one another right before getting whacked.
So by that logic, they pulled a fast one and gamed the church's doctrine to beat the church with its own rules. And although they killed themselves, they still get to make it to heaven. Man, I must've been a church lawyer in a prior life - either that or Agatha Christie :D
Molly:
The difference is that the school districts haven't been shielding these predators and shuffling them from one set of victims to the next for the last
20 40who knows how many years.If the people wanted to die and asked these people to do it....why arrest anyone?
commonsense:
Do you really believe that school districts weren't shielding sexual predators in the classroom? Why did we only start hearing about so many cases in the last 5-10 years? It certainly isn't something new...school districts were hiding it just like the bishops did.
@The Devil-1138528, your comment is sufficient with your name.
Common sense is an oxymoron: No defense for the Catholic Church here, but you should know that school districts routinely shift teachers accused of abuse to other districts. It's quite scary. In lots of cases, the teachers are told there have been accusations of abuse but that if the teacher resigns, he or she will be given a positive recommendation so he/she can move to another job. Happens all the time. No institution is immune to the desire to avoid embarrassment and controversy and shove problems under the rug.
Two gay priests steal money from the Church so they may end their lives... how utterly sad... the idiotic idea of celibate priests never seemed more idiotic to me... :(
Max - Where are you getting the information that they stole the money they used to pay the hitmen?
The Devil,
Cause murder was still illegal, as was--most likely--assisted suicide.
Yes, idiot school administrators shift child abusers around. But they don't get up on the pulpit and preach morality to a bunch of sheep. Institutions, churches, boy scouts, girl scouts, bridge clubs, tend to protect the institution above the members. I agree with Woody Allen, I wouldn't want to belong to any organization that accepts me.
What you will here most about those lying Bishops (and priests) is that they are so hypocritical.
It's not nearly as bizarre as the guy who built a robot to kill himself.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-539574/Grandfather-builds-gun-toting-robot-Internet-kills-avoid-care-home.html
Of course, by some of the logic being thrown around in these comments, I'm sure it's to the fault of all robotic engineers being immoral and hypocritical and that the man stole money from his employer to build the robot.
lol Some straight up whackadoos in this thread.
You can't make a conscience decision to have your life taken. If they were babies it would have been alright.
At least they were not 10 yeasr old like the priests usually do.
I thought that the title meant that the priests were secretly paying the hitmen to hit each other, therefore cleaning up the streets of these thugs. "Last hitman standing" kind of thing. That would have been pretty smart.
The puzzling thing to me is; A person of sound mind pays a guy to kill him. So he pays the man, and the man kills him. Where's the crime? Sounds like a pretty solid business transaction to me. It certainly wasn't murder.
AP,
You asked why in the last 5-10 years we hear so much about school room antics, ask yourself what has become so popular and easy to get in that time. Look at just about all of the reported cases and what do they have in common....technology is their downfall. They get snagged because of emails and texts that parents find. People don't think twice about snapping a photo with their phone and emailing it to someone. Don't fool yourselves into believeing this is a "new thing" or that it was covered up, their just making themselves easier to catch.
At the end of the article it calls them assassins but their wrong. Assassins are professionals at what they do and never get caught. Trigermen, hit-men, etc are freelancers and don't even know the basis of professional killing. A true assassin is a weapon to be used by those who can wield it. A freelancer is an idiot with a gun.
I don't really advocate murder but perhaps those gunmen kept some child from being infected with Aids or syphilis. Judging from what they said the one priest liked to do, apparently he wasn't too picky about his "partners".
This is certainly an interesting item. Rather than suicide by cop, we now have planned suicide by hit man. In suicide by cop, no one goes to jail; in suicide by hit man it is considered murder for hire. Very interesting issue to ponder. Is it really wrong and could you leave a note to exonerate your hit man? Is tracing the payment proof of intent? Oh, the irony of the Catholic church's position on suicide and gay issues. Great thought-provoking conversation starter.
Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, i truly DOUBT THAT !!!........
Regarding the shuffling around of pedophile priests and school personel, there is more of that going on in police depatments around the country than you would think. Maybe not for pedophillia but crooked cops and civil rights violations.
How horrible. The priesthood puts completely unreasonable requests on modern day human beings. I don't personally think at this juncture that their being allowed to marry if this is the vocation that they select would take away their reasonable focus on God (which I understand is the reasoning for their not being allowed to marry and taking on a lifetime of abstinence and denying normal human need). I'm sorry those men contracted HIV and lived in a veil of secrecy which lead to the drastic action of hiring hit men to end their lives...How totally horrible. There is too much secrecy and too many sorry stories that occur with the priethood due to this demand imposed by the Vatican. Its not the middle ages any longer.
Seems like a lot of gay men joining the catholic priesthood? How long has this been happening,
@jeeesus: The Lord IS Mercy (and Grace), defined by His love for His children (of which, both you, I, and these poor men are). GOD'S LOVE REIGNS SUPREME.
Rob, Nice, thank you.
it took FOUR assassins to kill 2 guys in a car? Something about that sounds kinda... lame
The atheists in this thread should not kid themselves. Sometimes, atheists wear the cloth and collar of the clergy. I knew of one where I used to live. He was secretly an atheist but his parishioners did not know it. He was asked how he could justify doing such a thing being an athiest while preaching as a pastor in a church.
His words were to the effect of, "I tell them what they want to hear; they pay me well. Everybody is happy. But, if you tell my congregation I'll just deny it and they will believe me over you!"
Try proving that these two priests were not doing the same or something similar. You cannot. I personally knew a Calvary Chapel Pastor who did not believe even half of what he was preaching but he was making nearly $70,000 a year and was not about to give it up at the time.
There is more of that going on than you think. Just FYI. :)
lmao, I hope they got paid first, and if not, maybe they can bill themselves later.
Disturbedlibrarian-just because a gay man has sex with other gay men, doesn't mean he has sex with children. Also did this guys actually have full blown AIDs or was it HIV and the writer just doesn't know the difference?
At the heart of the subject I think the issue most people have is with the hypocrisy of religion. Its ironic catholic priest with aids and syphilis. They are still supposed to be celibate right?
proamerica-1148973, you are suspended for a week for violating rule # 1 of the Code of Honor.
You have a history.
common sense is an oxymoron, you are suspended for a day.
Leaving many comments collapsed for being derails or for trolling religions.
dcpyl,
Your correct on all counts, however they start out believeing the lie and come to realize the truth. At that point finding a job with similar pay/benefits when you have no real marketable skills is nearly impossible. Not saying its right, but there you have it.
When you live in the closet out of fear, you do things that are unimaginable to str8 people. When you are hiding, love and monogamy become dangerous. The act of seeing someone often and exclusively opens you up to discovery. Its a chance your sense of self protection will not allow. Hiding in a str8 marriage also allows you to protect your self from possibly losing everything including everyone you love and care about (whether you will or not is beside the point, you feel it will)
By allowing people to live openly and freely will greatly reduce promescuity, practically end gay men marrying women and allow gay men the chance to develope more openly and in a more healthy manner. Things such as fetishes, unusual proclivities, promescuity and the like thrive under fear.
By keeping people oppressed and in the closet, you actually assure that the lives they lead will be unhealthy and detrimental to society. There will always be pedophiles and promiscuous men (gay or str8) but a healthy and open society will foster both str8 and gay men to live more agreeable lives and keep the undesirable types to a minimum.
what do you expect when you worship a cross..lol , i got better jesus is in my dogs ass, check my profile picture .
dcpyle .... Why is it that every time a Christian/Catholic does something immoral or criminally wrong, they are all of a sudden atheists or not really a Christian ? Are those religions really above sinning or all wrong doing ? Perhaps a Christian/Catholic can sin and fall from the grace of God.
They are a Christian that has sinned and nothing more. I just wish these religions would accept responsibility for their actions instead of making excuses.
not trolling mind you, however, i fail to see where people feel religion is "shoved down their throat", so to speak other than the same people saying it over, and over again. if it isnt about one religion, its about another, if not religion as a whole. I am not a devout christian, nor am i an aithiest. so other than perhaps an ad or something reaching out to someone who might could use a little religion is your beef? or just the fact someone has something you do not, that makes some seeth with, anger, and insults? i would guess these same people would gladly see you give your freedom of speech, after religion, or will it be the other way around seeing how both it seems have been coming under fire. i hear people saying it is forced on them, but never see any valid point, or proof as to how this is, or has been done. just rambles.
UnitedStates1776-
This is not what religion does to people. This is what degenerate queers do to each other with their disgusting, unnatural life-style...
The Catholic church has serious problems, and so many of them are centered in It's antiquated tenets regarding sexuality and women's rights. Seems increasingly apparent the world over.
Ms Fru ["it took FOUR assassins to kill 2 guys in a car? Something about that sounds kinda... lame"] -- good point! Especially when the 2 guys in the car wanted to be killed (if this account of it is true).
While these 'professional hitmen' do seem to be a bit unsure of themselves or inept (as Ms Fru pointed out--they needed four of them for this job?)--they also seem to be hitmen with integrity. I mean, what was to stop them from taking the money and then NOT making the hit?
Answer: nothing. But they followed through with it anyway. Either integrity...or they're really, really, not very smart.
Let me give you a few example Mossdog. Lets start with billboards, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Christian billboard. These range from church ads to God telling us "we can run, but we can't hide". Great, this is allowable so shouldn't be a problem. Put up one atheist billboard and you would think the four horsemen just checked into town. Churches complain, people complain and the news has a field day. Next example is creationism/intelligent design. These do not belong in a science class but there are continuous attempts to subvert real science. I don't want my kids taught that, you want your kid to believe the arc was real do so in church or your home. Think an atheist can be elected to public office? A few have, but try president! These bozos are trying to out do each other in how religious they are. People cite the pledge or "under God" on money, but really I think the religious types would have more of a problem with their God being used as a propaganda tool. So yes Mossdog, religion is being forced down everyones throught.
The acts that these two committed were not taught to them by their religion. To blame the Catholic church (or any religion) for this is foolish and makes the people doing it look as small minded as they claim religions are. I am not Catholic but I do beleive in God; and the God I believe in loves everyone, even the atheists!
Mr. Bubbs - The Antarctic Treaty of 1958 does not allow guns on the continent.
I only have one question. Since when does it take four hit men to assassinate two dysfuctional priests?
Mossdog: I guess you live in a more liberal area but personally I live in what is called the "Bible belt" and I assure you, Christianity is shoved down your throat on a daily basis. I feel like I can't express what I really believe due to fear that I will be hunted down or persecuted. People have murdered the animals of those who believe something different and scrawled words on their bodies in this part of the country. I like my kitties.
Hey Robkrfld, Gods Grace!??? Where in hell do you see any of
that?! Like Bobby D says, IOW, God answers your dreams, so stay asleep. I like what some1 said about taking 4 killers to kill 2 priests sitting in a car!! Too funny.
Priests paying 8,500 to knock off their competition.
Religion is pure EVIL! Next they will be kidnapping and raping your kids (oops, already being done) for ransom money.
As I have always said, MONEY is their true GOD, not the invisible man in the sky.
END all church and religions NOW!
@falconer33
Homosexuality is a continuous attempt to subvert real science also, and should not be taught in a public classroom. If evolution and science wanted two queers to reproduce, it would have found a way eons ago. If you forget about religious belief and just look at the science, you still can't justify homosexuality, it is unnatural.
These two priests just took the natural way out of an unnatural situation.
First of all christians do not worship a cross, they worship GOD. Secondly, the roman catholic religion is not christian, it is a cult.
Sam, You are MOST correct, I can see that too, LMAO.
MGates, You mean like people on here do to christians and christian beliefs daily?
Let's all quit the association between Christianity and Catholicism. The two are ridiculously different.
I guess 2 hitmen, one for each priest, and the other 2 hitmen to back them up, just in case they "freeze" about killing priests.
Well, your wrong. Homosexuality does exist in the animal (non-human) world. Its well documented that birds and apes develop relationships with the same sex. This is psychological and not physiological attachments. So, forgeting religion and looking just at science, yes it does. Thank you for proving my point that science needs to be taught in science class.
I feel terrible for the living that have to bare the brunt of their actions.
Ella-3513986
lol, They worship money, for money is their true god.
Another garbage article from MSNBC. These men who were gay, caught aids( through their own fault), hired hitmen to kill themselves because they couldn't face public scrutiny. Which is more screwed up? The fact that these men pretended to be christians while invading the Catholic Church or the fact most atheists can't see that these men were the cause for their own demise. You decide. It's no wonder that the majority of the people on this site are so confused.
Everyone knows that the Catholic Church is a hideout for gay men. I know you don't want to believe it, but they are also the cause for most of the molestations of children that take place among the priests. Atheists should be aware not to throw stones when they blame the Catholic Church.
Good point, blondeness.
These guys deaths are tragic, no matter how much people here may want to joke about it or use it as a weapon to bash religion or homosexuality or anything else.
First of all, these guys should never have become Catholic priests. These days, priests must lead a celibate lifestyle, and it does not sound as though these guys were celibate. Some day that may change, but right now, that's the rule. And no, celibacy does not drive a man to become homosexual any more than being homosexual and celibate drives a gay man to abuse children. Celibacy means no sex of any kind, and yes, it is possible for an adult male to remain celibate, no matter how much some of you may wish to imagine otherwise.
Secondly, being gay, or having a disease, or the shame of breaking priestly vows should not distress a person so much that they are driven to end their lives. As a society, we need to be more compassionate about other people than that. And wholesale vilification of entire groups – be they all the gays, or all the Catholics, or all the religious people, or all the atheists – is not how we bring compassion to the world.
As to pedophiles, the compassionate thing to do with them is put them in jail for life so that they can no longer harm children.
ha! were they compassionate in the first place? nope...bullet to the head would be more compassionate.
Catholics are Christians. However, not the evangelical type Christians who force religion constantly, or drag around crosses or shout on street corners. That's just not the way Catholics roll.
Such hatred and sleezy comments on these boards. Maybe some of you are not religious, but are you not decent either? It's impossible to respect the opinions of so many of you. Bet you think of yourselves as "tolerant" huh? Some of you, quite obviously, don't know the meaning of the word, nor practice what you preach.
@ chadical, actually if you would do a little reading, homosexual behavior has been observed in close to 1,500 species, not just human.
Ella, could you explain to everyone exactly how Catholocism isn't Christianity, but a cult? Before you do that please provide an exact definition of what a cult is, and how it is different from a genuine religion.
Considering that Catholics worship Jesus Christ, and the historical fact that all Protestant denominations originally came from (split off from) the Catholic church I'd be interested to know a Protestant denomination is Christian, but Catholics aren't.
Just so you know though, in my humble opinion, the Orthodox Church is the most legitimate faction of Christianity. But I'm just basing that off of historical facts.
Ella,that is what all religions say about the other religions.
Sorry, Aggie, but Catholicism is an abominable, paganistic version of Christianity. To be frank, it's detestable and God is not pleased in the lies, hypocrisy, licensing to sin, etc.
NantucketMan ~
I believe your definition of 'legitimate faction' is skewed: it doesn't have to do with history; it doesn't even have to do with origin. A legitimate faction of a religion is one that abides and adheres to it's dogma, without variance.
Assuming your not being sarcastic YourShadow, I am amazed at the hubris people exhibit when they say what God is or isn't happy about. And people say Atheists are bitter!
YourShadow, I can see how you would think of Catholocism as being a blend of paganism and Christianity considering that they used sycretism as a conversion tactic to try and get pagans to be Christian. Compound that with such Folk Catholic religions floating around such as Voudou and Santaria where African slaves disguised their religions AS Catholocism in order to avoid being persecuted or killed by their Catholic slave owners for not converting to Christianity and it is easy to see how you could be confused into thinking that Catholics are Pagan.
However, in spite of the blunders of syncretism Catholics do worship Jesus Christ and not Saints or Angels, which makes them Christian. Also, ALL of the religious cosmology and moral laws espoused by ALL Protestant denominations were inherited from the Catholic Church. And that's after the blunders of syncretism. As a result Protestants still perform pagan rituals such as hunting Easter eggs and putting up Christmas trees in your living rooms, yet think nothing of it.
All this is historical fact.
I believe your definition of 'legitimate faction' is skewed: it doesn't have to do with history; it doesn't even have to do with origin. A legitimate faction of a religion is one that abides and adheres to it's dogma, without variance.
I like your comment and it raises a good point. Orthodoxy, by its very definition, adheres to it's dogma, or rather it's cannon law, rather ridgedly. The Orthodox faction, consisting of denominations that are based on cultural differences rather than dogmatic differences, has done that rather well over the last thousand years. So, by your definition it is still legitimate. In order to have a more complete view of what their dogma is you would have purchase The Rudder, which is unfortunately prohibitively expensive.
Ray el Viejo, don't use gay slurs please. You are suspended for a day for violating rule # 5 of the Code of Honor.
Why would these gay men join the Catholic Church? Any person could see that you either believe in the teachings of Christianity, or you don't? You cannot compromise with the two. That by the way, also includes the prospect of gay marriages. The way I see it, there are many more atheists proclaiming to be christians than the other way around. It's no wonder that the "real" atheists see christians as being hypocrites.
That's a silly statement.
The truth is that all Catholics are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholics.
About half of all Christians are Catholic, roughly one third are Protestant, and the remaining one sixth Orthodox, but even that doesn't tell the whole story. In the US, many (not all) of the mainstream Protestant denominations are declining in membership, while non-denominational churches are among the fastest growing segment of Christianity. Meanwhile, there are more similarities in some ways between Catholicism and Lutheranism and Anglicanism than there are between Lutheranism or Anglicanism and some of the more fringe sects of Protestantism.
As to differences between Catholicism and Protestantism, there are more similarities than differences. The differences tend to be subtle and relatively unimportant (like whether priests or bishops can marry), while the similarities are rather profound (like belief in the Holy Trinity).
How can you say the fact that priests and bishops can't marry is anything but profound? They have no personal experience with marriage so how can they provide councel? They have no personal experience with sex (unless you consider .....well.....you know) so how can they provide councel on that topic? I will give them credit on their ability to provide councel on alcohol abuse since most priests abuse alcohol themselves.
commonsense ~
I was referring to True Christianity, not Nominal Christianity (or Mainstream Christianity). My apologies: perhaps I should have clarified.
Nantucket ~
The Orthodox faction has quite a deceptive name, as they are anything but orthodox. They do not adhere to their dogmatic practices, despite what you may think. Example: Jesus teaches us to lead lives of simplicity and humility...something that is contrary to the example of the Pope, who lives a life riddled with wealth and power. The Catholics lead very physical lives; their spiritual experience is virtually non-existent. This is evidenced by nearly all of their practices, customs and traditions alike.
Knotthaid....There are many thousands of unmarried, never married counsellors who counsel married people. And those priests that do have done just as much study, hold just as many degrees, probably even more, than lay, single counsellors. Do medical doctors have to have personally had every disease in order to treat it?
Your Shadow: Your comment #1.78 is a perfect example of what I said about hatefilled people. I couldn't have asked for a better demonstration to prove my point. Thank you!
Nonetheless, Aggie, I would prefer to hire an electrician who has at least once been shocked to @!$%# than one that has only a theoretical reference.
Better test the altar boys while they're at it...
knotthaid...To each his own. Anyone can go to anyone they feel comfortable with. I'm not making a sales pitch, just stating a fact.
I find your post confusing. First you start talking about the Orthodox church, then you cite the Pope as an example of the Orthodox church, then you start talking about how Catholocism is veiled atheism. First, I'm going to infer from your writing style and the fact that you referenced the Pope as an example of Orthodoxy that you don't know the difference between the Orthodox church and the Catholic church, and are probably unaware of the schism of 1054. I recommend you go to wikipedia and look up the schism of 1054. It is because of the schism of 1054 and the reasons behind it that I think that the Orthodox church is the most legitimate faction of Christianity, and not the Catholic church.
Secondly, I must point out that you first accused the Catholics of being veiled pagans, and in your above post you accuse them of veiled atheism. At best your accusations are partially correct in that they apply to some members of the faith, but not others. At worst you are putting words in the mouths of the Catholics by talking about what they believe without asking them what they believe. Druids, Helenists, Asatruar, and other brands of the blanket term of paganism are very spiritual. So, if Catholocism is veiled paganism it must be spiritual, even if it is misguided spirituality. If the Catholics are, as you say, so materialistic that their spirituality is dead, then why is it that the Catholic church has an International Order of Exorcists? You can't have an IOE if you are so materialistic that your spirituality is dead. Maybe you could make such an accusation of one duplicitous person, but we are talking about an organization of millions of people. As I said before, at best you are partially correct in that your statement could apply to a few Catholics, but not all of them.
On a final note, since you appear to not know what Orthodoxy is, and what makes it Orthodox and Catholocism heresy, I recommend that you go to an Eastern Orthodox church and ask them what they believe before you sit on an internet forum telling them what they believe after reading only a single wikipedia artile on the subject.
Good post, Nantucket. Normally I don't bother with the trolls, but I think you shut that one up.
However, you're partially wrong on one part...
It's actually over a billion. Last I looked, it was 1.18 billion Catholics worldwide. Which makes it the second largest denomination of religion on the planet (with the Sunnis being first at 1.50 billion).
And we'll have to have a Catholic vs. Orthodoxy debate some other time! :D
Um... I don't want to say anything bad about gay people or the church, so...
What I find even more despicable about these gay Catholic priests is that they made sure they left theinfo about the hitmen for the authorities. They hired the hitmen to do a suicide they were too cowardly to perform themselves; and then they make sure these men are caught. Truly bizarre!
sonofavetvetfatherofvets
Too late. The fact you felt compelled to leave that post to tell us that you don't want to say anything bad about religion or gay people...essentially does just that.
Nice try at trying to stay lilly-white despite the crap coming out of your mouth.
Okay..I'm at a loss for words here...I'm getting to the point where I just don't want to know anymore..
The title suggest the hitmen were paid to kill each other or commit suicide, that would've been a better story.
Exactly what I thought when I first saw the poorly written title. I think authors are doing that on purpose to get people to read the articles..
That was the theme of a movie called the Assassination Bureau. Good flick, but very hard to find.
That's what happens when networks and local stations get when they hire based on image rather than skill. That, and "Botoga" in the second-to-last paragraph.
You mean like Mr. and Mrs. Smith?
DB....Or what you get for doing away with or having no oversight..... just to cut cost or save money or probably too trusting, or just too lazy to bother to proof read.
On the other hand you get what you pay for these days amoung other things. With all the tweeting and texting and short hand communication it is no wonder some folks no longer know how to spellcheck, construct sentences or the reason for paragraphs.
But on the other hand you have to make it catchy, grab the attention of the reader and then present the info/story as fast/brief as possible, because as has been stated over and over adnauseum ...... 'the American public have a short attention span'....LOL
The headlines did suggest the idea that the priests were paying hitmen to kill off each other i.e. other hitmen...
Initially I thought well that's a novel way to clean up crime, i.e. get rid of the murderous criminal elements ... then it turns out to be just a case of assisted suicide. It seems they were determined to die so they found a way to do it....although they have left a mess behind and the possibility of others going to jail for carrying out their wishes.
Why didn't the priests just go into some of the drug violence infested areas that we keep hearing about dressed in street clothes, point a fake gun at or talk out against those who are known to be in the business etc? They could have had their suicide for free and if anyone goes to jail for their death it would be some drug dealer/killer or other. Now that would have been a win/ win result...
Peace....
What's opposite of a win-win situation? ...
uh, government?
umm, republicans?
Elections.
All of the above.
Sorry, you forgot religion.
Obama and his pathetic administration
@South Carolina
would people stop putting politics in everything
Well the story starts like this 2 Priest in Colombia had an Idea after one found out his lover priest had AIDS so they asked themselves what would Barack Obama Do and they remembered the story of how Obama's Gay lover were found killed execution style and it HIT them (pun intented) just hire an assian and just like obama we won't have to pay for it ourselves we can use the peoples money to have it done. Sad Part is its all true the story should have been titled
HOW COLOUMBIAN PRIEST WERE INSPIRED BY BARACK OBAMA'S HANDLING OF GAY RELATIONSHIPS
What do you expect? Its S. Carolina. You know, Newt country.
South Carolina didn't start with the politics...read the comments above his. And BTW..SC is right.
Roscoe...
The next time you think about speaking or typing....DON'T.
If you are a Republican, the GoTP Nomination circus.
While a win-win is being a liberal right now, watching the right eat it's own has a certain poetic justice to it.
KCCO
Hump Day!
Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. So sad.
Ummm.... AIDS isn't temporary.
well.........it could be fixed by the next morning, can't really know
Also, you can live long with AIDS if you get treatment. It's hardly the death sentence it used to be. No cure yet, except in 1 bizarre case.
Doesn't mean you should kill yourself.
Nothing that a little prayer couldn't fix...
If you believe that your soul is eternal, then AIDS is a temporary problem.
No, there really is a 'cure.' It is radical and there is not enough to go around. You must first destroy all your existing bone marrow. You must then get a bone marrow transplant from a donor who carries the gene that makes them immune to HIV.
You will then no longer be infected by HIV and the current infection you might have will be gone as the virus no longer can replicate within the new T-cells (unless the virus mutates somewhere along the line).
The bad news is that these individuals carrying the gene are far and few between and there is not enough marrow to go around at present.
I'm surprised that 'two' priests would go along with this. They may not have pulled the trigger, but hiring someone to do it for you IMO is the same as a suicide. If getting to heaven is the goal, Catholics believe that to be a mortal sin. What is sad is the culture by either country but most probable the powers that be of their heirarchy. A loss for sure.
You could argue that since they were going to commit suicide anyway, might as well use hitmen. Following their arrests they'll be several hitmen off the street too.
So they helped other people commit mortal sins also...I'm sure they rationalized it was all for the best, typical hypocrite "believers".
You could also mention that not too many gay people join the Catholic Church and become priests. Pretending to be christians while continuing their lifestyle was obviously not the answer.
Since they obviously had unprotected sex on multiple occasions, they committed suicide before they ever hired the hit men. Seems like kind of a double whammy as far as their faith is concerned. There is screwing up and then there is screwed to the max.
Stupid headline--the hitmen did not kill themselves.
Camino1;
Your right, I thought it was the hitmen who killed themselves.
The composer of the headline does not deserve a raise. Should he/she be fired?
That's a bit harsh, 1Foolish-Idea...Yes, the headline was poorly written...but so was your comment.
You're vs. your - learn it.
Should we fire you?
The title is open to interpretation; themselves could refer to the priests or the hitmen.
Negative, Ghostrider.
Imagine if I said: 'I hired a hitman to kill myself.' That doesn't make sense. 'I hired a hitman to kill me,' makes sense.
The title should read: 'Colombian Priests Hire Hitmen to Kill Them.'
When you add '-self' or -selves', it changes the context of the situation. I can do something to myself. You can't do something to myself; you CAN, however, do something to ME. See the difference? The Priests could kill themselves, but the hitmen didn't kill themselves (meaning the hitmen didn't kill the hitmen); the hitmen killed THEM (meaning the hitmen killed the priests).
Confused yet? Welcome to English.
nah...should've read something like, "Priests put out contract on themselves; killed within days"...
So, in their final hypocrisy, they avoided the sin of suicide--thereby saving their own souls--by inducing someone else to commit the sin of murder.
Too bad they can't be brought back to die in prison.
You know, this is an interesting story. Think of all the conflicts and turmoil here: the forbidden love, the despair, the fear of throwing yourself into the canyon versus the fear of not doing so, all coming down to the two of them sitting quietly in a car, waiting for someone to come and shoot them. If they had left their hypocritical vocation and their hypocritical church behind and dared to simply be what they were, they could have lived out a satisfying life together. Instead, we have a tragedy worthy of Shakespeare.
Yes, this is really very sad. And I can't imagine that, as some posters are suggesting, they thought they were avoiding the sin of suicide. They didn't think they were going to get off on some kind of "technicality." This was about being outcasts and being consumed by self-loathing and despair. They might have been worried about the humiliation their families would experience if they were found to be gay. The whole story is just horrible.
And then there was the hypocricy day in and day out of preaching an unforgiving policy to others. Condemning themselves secretly on the pulpit. Over and over and over again. Telling others that what they were doing was wrong, and knowing they were living a lie.
Wow! This is Oscar winning at least! Someone quick, write a screen play!
So, it's a Cardinal Sin to commit suicide, but you can hire a hit man to DIY? Crazy religion.
Hmm, did you ever hear a Homily by either priest? You have NO idea what they preached.
For that matter, from day #1, the Catholic Church has taught forgiveness as did Jesus. We are ALL sinners. I find it tragic that these priests decided that they had no hope and decided to end their lives. All I can do is pray for them!
I do not understand why these 2 priests elected to murder themselves. After all, the church has available the means to help anyone with their medical problems and it is really not a disgrace anymore to get caught doing things one should not. They could have went for the cure and simply been relocated - a favorite way for the church today to solve their problems.
Makes you wonder, doesn't it? I mean if priests don't believe the Catholic church endorses forgiveness, should anyone else?
not true, maybe they chose to reject forgiveness. It wouldn t be the first time. On the other hand one could have absolved the other, that way only one was "lost"
And they couldn't have absolved each other? Man, are religious nuts coocoo or what?
If the priests were exposed as 'gay' the Catholic church would have dropped them like a rotten sack of potatoes. They only try to hide I mean 'reform' those priest that have fondled little boys.
Wow E. Jensen. I thought everyone knew Catholic priests were supposed to be celibate. This begs the questions:
1.) How did they get AIDS in the first place?
and...
2.) Who did they possibly infect with AIDS?
Hypocritical Catholics, crying foul when the world doesn't bow to them, then skirting their own rules to make everything sanctified....
I still don't understand the concept of confession!! It's like ALLOWANCE to go out and do someone else ill/harm/foul then just come to the church and confess your sins and all will be forgiven?? WTH is that??
Oh, and if they got AIDS from medical treatment....please disregard the 2 questions above......
I'm just sayin'....
There is also the question of whether or not they were closet atheists. They were already in the closet otherwise. If they were closet atheists they would have felt that there was not hope, and not believing in an afterlife they would have done as they planned. For atheists this life is all there is so no condition truly is temporary in the mind with lifelong illnesses like this since everything including life itself is temporary and there is nothing to look forward to in their minds. Just saying... :)
Nice try but don't pass the nutters in one group off to another, dcpyle. I suppose all the priests who touch kids are secretly mormon or the pope was a heathen while he was in the Hitler youth and then converted later.
I suppose you think that these gay men were christians then? Is that why they invaded the Catholic Church?
You really don't understand atheism at all Dcpyle. Of course I don't blame you, few people understand what atheism was before the religion of atheism became a prominent forerunner. And for that I sorely disappointed. Religion, all of it, is flawed. While the theories and ideas of them may have merit the problem comes from the people. The practitioners of any system of belief are inherently flawed to their understanding of it. Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, Atheism, it'sall the same. When ever you get a group of people together you're asking for stupidity. A person may be intelligent, clever, or any number of things, but people are almost always without exception idiots.
No, these two men saw a desperate situation and saw only one exit strategy. It wasn't a choice made of morals or faith though either could be used to justify it. It was a choice made on desperation and, unfortunately, human stupidity.
Oh, but I do understand atheism. I used to be an atheist. Some curious stuff happened that led me to change my mind--especially after the MRI and CAT Scans revealed that there was no natural cause or explanations for what happened. Can't provide details at the present time, however.
But, I also do know that there are atheists amongst the clergy of various churches, many of whom remain active participants just to keep their families happy. Others do it for the money. I have met some and I know others who have met others like them. Believe it or don't believe it. It makes little difference to me. :)
Nice try nothing! I personally know atheists who are in ministry and I know of others. Believe it or don't believe it but it is true. There are actually atheists in ministry who are in it for the money and/or remain members of churches to keep their families happy.
Ummm, no.
Ummm, no again. The Pope was Catholic at the time.
They need to study the Book of Romans.
And they say Being gay is good, hahahahahaha
this goes to show! its not!
they just threw that in there that they were going to kill themselves by throwing themselve off a cliff, thats a sin!! but if they gotten killed they goto heaven all is forgiven!!
Ahhhh what a cop out!
Sloppyjoes;
It's thanks to people with small minds like yours that makes being gay difficult. Without dealing with attitudes like yours, being gay can be good. No matter, you won't believe me, anyway.
Thats right! Small Mind HUH?!? looks who talking, a person that cannot handle the oppisite sex. Small Mind give me a break!
You cant handle the oppisite sex because youve been rejected by them! So who has the small mind?
yeah your mind have better english or grammar or might even have a higher education, but YOU SURE HAVE NOT LEARNED ANYTHING ABOUT LIFE!
Stick to your name!! I stand Corrected.
you stand clueless. you stand ignorant. you stand hateful. you do not stand corrected.
Sloppyjoes, perhaps you should learn the meaning of a phrase before bandying it about; by stating "I stand corrected" you are admitting your wrong.
Ignore Sloppyjoes, he can't even spell 'opposite'! Let him wallow in his own misery and suffer from the hatred, anger, bitterness, and self-loathing within his own heart.
1Foolish-Idea, FC, CO Heaven, Aunt of 8-1813159, you are all suspended for a day for violating rule # 1 of the Code of Honor.
Cut it out. Thanks.
Sloppyjoes, you are suspended for a month. You have a history. Last chance.
I requested clarification on why I was suspended for a day for my post. No response. I've seen truly vile words used to describe other posters w/o censorship. My words were not derogatory, simply descriptive. Oh, well.
I yi, yi yi! Boy, were they WEARING the wrong Career! Even in their death, no dignity. The one thing they could not have in life, neither in death. The sexual inbalance of this world, is about to come to an end. We have seen what Mankind does, when he is not balanced by the feminine.
To hire a hit-man to kill yourself is a very foolish idea. What a waste! Shows a lack of intestinal fortitude, too.
They could have just driven off the cliff near the bridge if they could not live with the fact one liked gay sex and contracted Aids. Make it look like an accident and it wouldn't be seen as suicide.
Besides, you can live a good life for years with HIV. I've seen many friends do it.
ah, religion...never fails to make nuts out of us all...course i'm not religious, so i'm not nuts. relatively, anyway. if it weren't for religion, this wouldn't have happened.
joe420er;
I agree, too bad it took so long for me to become an atheist! I'm not completely nuts, either.
Yes because Atheist would never do something so stupid... get real people.
Joe420er, what a idiotic thing to say....how ignorant are you? People say Christians are close minded....I think your comment proves you're a giant hypocrite.
maybe...but religion pushed these two to believe that they can't live with their "sin"...and i say, what sin? wasn't worth dying over...i'm more surprised there hasn't been a massive die-off through suicides by pedophiliac priests...last i heard there were over 200 re-located to cali...guess they don't consider that a sin...i mean, they got rewarded, didn't they...
Joe show proof that 200 pedophile priest were relocated to California. Your I heard means nothing since you have already showed your hatred toward Christianity.
I wonder if a priest jump of a cliff, then he's still a alive and falling. It's the fall that kill him. But that is still consider to be a suicidal sin of catholic beliefs... Anyway, why priest got aids in the first place? That could be the real sin and it would not matter because suicide is a sin that trump other sin i am thinking... then martyrdom would make a sense.
juju, if the priest put himself in that fall in the first place, then yeah, it's considered a suicide...i mean, he wouldn't be falling if he didn't jump.
jujubefruit. It's not the fall that kills you. It's the sudden stop. You can fall forever, but you will not die until you hit the ground.
Probably would have, or something like it. You have to be disconnected from reality to some extent to become that immersed in religion.
This is what religion does to people.
AIDS is survivable. You can live a long time with the illness.
The problem is that you cannot live a long time being ostracized by stupid religious wingnuts.
It's way past time for the Catholic church to abolish the celibacy requirement for its preisthood. By the way celibacy doesn't just mean prohibition on marriage, it also bars sexual intercourse. Additionally, they should allow women to become part of the priesthood. The current exclusively male structure is archaic and has led to most of the problems and lawsuits that the church has been faced with. Not to mention their vehement opposition to contraceptives.
I agree, it has really never worked to restrict the heirarchy. Cardinals, Bishops, Priests tend to do what they want anyway.
If people aren't happy with the way the Roman Catholic Church is, we Episcopalians will accept them. Priest can marry, we ordain women as priest and the first to elect an openly gay Bishop. Also they will perform civil unions for same sex couples.
It's the Roman Catholics, not the others, that have celibacy requirements for their clergy. Greek Orthodox Catholics allow married clergy. If you are married before entering the clergy, you may remain married. If you are not, however, you must then remain celibate even therein--unless something changed in recent years but I have heard nothing.
The Catholic church has a lot to offer the world. Unfortunately from my point of view they need to evolve. There are too many changes in our notions of morality. The safe sexual interaction of consenting adults is decriminalized. Contraception is widely practiced amongst parishoners. I understand the aversion only to abortion. It is a disturbing practice, but other forms of contraception are simply the facilitators of planning a family and enjoying a partner. I do not care if my priest is celebate, a consenting homosexual, or married. As long as his practice has no victims, and he is discrete and respectful those outside of his sexual intercorse, then he is like all the rest of the humans. I am saddened by this story.
I agree, we need to evolve. We could even try to keep the rule of no sex outside of marriage, but: contraception within a marriage should not be a problem. priesthood should not be limited by gender*. priests should be allowed to marry*. Same-sex marriage should at least be acknowledged as marriage by the church, even if they don't want to perform the ceremony (best I can tell, the Catholic Church has no opposition to someone being gay, just the fact that acting on is is sex outside of marriage).
*we need all the priests we can get- rural areas are stuck sharing one priest in two or more parishes (churches).
You all are describing the Episcopal Church.
The Catholic church does have a lot to offer the world, potentially - but it doesn't. The Catholic church has more money than almost any organization or corporation on this planet. They could effect great change and do so much good. Instead they hoard it, because God knows they won't help people unless they agree with Catholic doctrines. Mission work is great - but conditional upon people converting to their faith, which to me sort of defeats the purpose.
Religion is supposed to be about a relationship with God, it is supposed to be positive, teaching forgiveness, acceptance, and love for your fellow man. Faith and Beliefs are great things if they give you that positive outlook. You are supposed to feel protected and watched over, it is supposed to give you a sense of security and meaning in a difficult world.
Religion has perverted its own message, into a set of rules and strictures that make you feel judged, and give people a reason to justify their own judgment of others that don't follow those rules. It's a method of controlling the masses, not helping them. I know some wonderful people with religious beliefs, and they are usually the people that don't advertise or make a big deal of their religious beliefs, they are simply good people because of them. Most of the people that tout themselves as "good Christians" are the exact opposite - they are judgmental, hateful, and cannot wait to put someone else down for their beliefs. I can't imagine what about that would be considered "good."
The fact is, people of all religions should be in agreement, not opposition and conflict. The point is that they all believe in a higher power watching over us. But since organized religions have instead created a set of rules to box people in, it has created a situation of conflict over which rules are better and which fundamental beliefs are correct, when we should be paying attention to the big picture of love and understanding, not "sweating the small stuff."
As an agnostic, let me add my own thoughts to some refreshingly reasonable discourse. I believe that religion is man made, man regulated, and for man. They have nothing to do with God. God has none of these crazy requirements. The common thread of many religions is humanism, a philosophy that does not divide us, but brings us together. That, in my opinion, was the orginal intent of the message from Jesus. I have found since removing my label of Christian, the freedom to follow that philosophy and in turn, become more Christlike. That has just been my experience, perhaps because the particular Christian sect I was raised was so self righteous, however, I know many, many people of various religious beliefs who are also humanists. (As a very close friend of mine said, and she still considers herself Catholic, "When you are told you have the only TRUE religion, you can be sure you do not.")
The point is, religious division fails humankind time and time again. I understand why people are sensitive to the scrutiny of their religion, but if your religion cannot withstand scrutiny, who is at fault? The questioner or the religion?
I am very sorry for these priests who felt this was their only recourse. It is a tragedy that they weren't able to seek help and compassion.
Catholics are famous for finding loopholes to justify their behavior when it transgresses their own laws/rules so I suppose that hiring hit men to kill themselves meant that they didn't commit suicide.
I was raised Catholic and attended 12 years of parochial schools but I left the church and walked away more than 30 years ago because I couldn't condone the hypocrisy.
When my ex husband and I divorced after 10 years of marriage and one child, he trotted down to the tribunal and paid for an annulment so that he could marry again in the Catholic Church if he so desired. I refused to participate in that charade. We divorced over irreconcilable issues. It was a divorce and calling it an annulment didn't alter the circumstances. Devout Catholics such as my ex do this kind of thing all the time and justify the hypocrisy in their own minds.
Oh, and as a side note: We practiced birth control too but since I took the pill and he didn't use a condom, in his mind if anyone was sinning, it was me, not him.
If I'm not mistaken Jesus spoke out rather clearly about those who keep the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law.
I did my time at a parochial school and I understand your view of the organized religion's hypocrisy. However, my understanding is that despite the "dogmas" of the Catholic church, God knows what is in our hearts and in our minds.
I saw my fair share of "front row Catholics" growing up...those that are Catholic for an hour on Sunday, then as soon as Mass is over, they are out and about not living a Christian life. I am not about to prattle on explaining the reasons for celibacy, birth control, male only priests. Devout Catholics live by the rules of the organized religion, those rules written by man, not by God.
I hope that you still retained your faith despite your "divorce" from the church.
I think the author/editor might want to glance at the headline, and then take a class about pronouns. The hitmen were hired to kill the priests, not themselves, as the headline incorrectly states. Way to proofread.
No one has suggested a headline to replace it. I thought about it and it wasn't that easy. Good cheap criticism, Nick_L.
Priests commit suicide by hiring hitmen to do the job. Easy.
Funny as hell. Assuming these guys actually believed Catholic doctrine, I find it rather amusing that they thought they could trick God with a technicality.
yeah, they got it all wrong....taking one's own life (committing suidice) goes against God's Word.
I agree with you. GOD would have forgiven them, because HE LOVES THEM! Suicide is not the right answer to one's problems!!!
Daniel
What they probably did was hear each others confession and gave each other forgiveness for their sins.
Which under the Church's teaching would get them into Heaven!